
CM: Oh, hello, Clio. Where have you been lately? You've left me high and dry for days now.
Clio: I've been to London to visit the Queen. I've been lying here waiting, waiting. I've been everywhere, man -
CM: All right, all right! I get it. That last one was an allusion to my uncompleted India posting, wasn't it?
Clio: It was what you make of it, darling. You have a few other projects in mind, I believe, anyway. Why aren't you doing anything about them?
CM: It's my Johnsonian inertia again. Speaking of which -
Clio: Ah, now we're coming to it! That old touch of the Muse works every time. [Aside: I really must find a way to spend a little more time with her.] Come on, dear, spit it out.
CM: I've noticed that among certain conservative writers (that Roger Devlin fellow, for instance), there's a movement afoot to defend marriage in the West as it used to be, before various women's rights movements, including feminism, took over. The ideas that offend me most are the suggestion that women in the past didn't contribute to the family economy, which is a libel on the women of the past, and the idea that women should be prepared to resign themselves to male infidelity, which is a great burden to place on the women of today. Oh, and of course I'm also annoyed by the suggestion that women are exceptionally self-centred and always have been, that this is dictated by evolutionary biology. But I've written about that one before, and about the contribution issue, so I'll leave them for the moment. Perhaps.
Clio: I believe you've argued yourself that female infidelity within marriage is more of a threat to the social order than male infidelity.
CM: Yes, indeed I have. Historically, when women's fidelity could not be guaranteed, when men could not be certain who their children were, or children know the identity of their fathers, female infidelity was a more serious threat to the social order. But why should that rule us now, when a simple test can determine a child's paternity? I don't mean to offer license to women to be unfaithful. What I wonder is why men who call themselves conservative think they can claim a right to have their infidelities overlooked by their wives, by appealing to a past so different from the present? I can understand if some couples settle on this as a private arrangement amongst themselves, formally or informally. That's up to them. But I really don't like to hear men bandy about this idea as if it were natural and right. By all means let's change laws that compel men to support all their wives' children, no matter who actually fathered them.
Clio: Doesn't your hero Johnson share that view?
CM: Yes, he does, and I find it something of a blot on the great man's reputation. What to make of passages like this one in Boswell's Life, in which Boswell speaks to Johnson of a friend who "had maintained [infidelity] was by no means as bad in the husband, as in the wife." Johnson's response? "Your friend was in the right, Sir. Between a man and his Maker it is a different question: but between a man and his wife, a husband's infidelity is nothing. They are connected by children, by fortune, by serious considerations of community. Wise married women don't trouble themselves about infidelity in their husbands."
Clio: Ha! Yes, well, that's certainly what the gods thought. Notice, though, that they weren't as successful at wringing fidelity out of their women as mortal men have been.
CM: I always forget that you're so retro, Clio my love. Anyway, Johnson added "My wife told me I might with as many women as I pleased, provided I loved her alone...Consider, Sir, how gross it is in a wife to complain of her husband's going to other women, merely as women; it is that she has not enough of what she would be ashamed to avow." Notice the implication of that last point. Women's acceptance of male infidelity in the past depended upon embracing a kind of modesty that did not allow them to acknowledge their enjoyment of sexual relations. If modern conservative men want this kind of license, they might have to accept the kind of wife who professes no interest in sex except as a duty. Although some men do complain that this is what all wives eventually come to in any case, it seems unlikely that they would want their marital relationships to start out on that footing. [n.b. that in John Wain's Samuel Johnson, Wain explains that Boswell cancelled this passage in the published edition of his Life.]
Clio: Yes, interesting. It's funny, though, that Johnson doesn't really emphasize the idea of the importance of men being able to guarantee the paternity of their wives' offspring, isn't it? It's almost as if he takes that part for granted. His whole argument really rests on female modesty.
CM: That's it exactly. And perhaps on his inability to sympathize with women's emotional needs. Here's what Wain writes about their friendship:
With sentiments like these, Johnson was perfecty prepared to allow to Henry Thrale a licence that he certainly would not, with his tender conscience, have allowed to himself. Thrale's being a whoremaster seems to have made no difference at all to Johnson's regard for him. The pain of being neglected for a succession of girls was one that Hester had to bear alone.
More: she had to conceal her grief and depression as much as she possibly could. All men, in the end, make impossible demands on women, and Johnson's demands on Hester Thrale were no exception. He told he of his own anxiety and misery, but he did not like having to hold still while she told him of hers. He clutched at her hand while walking through the valleys of his own private Inferno; she had to walk through hers alone. This is the great contrast between Johnson's relationship with Hester Thrale and his relationship with Boswell. Johnson listened for hours at a time to Boswell's confessions and emotional outpurings. But when he was with Mrs Thrale it was his turn to do the talking. When he was in one of his fits of depression, he resented it if she was slow to pull him out. Once, when he was lying in bed in a state of gloom, she came into the room in a gown of some drab colour. He snarled at her, asking if she were trying to depress him still further.
Perhaps it's true, as some conservative men say, that women now make impossible demands on men. If so, surely it's no answer to say, with Wain, that men historically have made impossible demands on women. The question is, what to do about it now?
Clio: I never comment on the future, darling, you know that. My business is the past.
CM: I'm not certain you're always consistent about that, Clio, but I'll let it go this time. I just don't want to see men trying to recreate the past in response to the disorders of the present. In the first place, it's impossible, because the conditions of the past no longer prevail and we cannot recreate them without grave injury to ourselves. In the second place, our ancestors, though not the thorough-going villains they have been painted to be by postcolonial literary theorists, were not angels either. The best you could say about them was that they did what they could with the limited materials available to them.
10 comments:
1) It depends which way marriage goes. I remember when one of my colleagues' marriages broke up, perhaps because of infidelity, our chaplain said to me, 'it sounds banal, but the importance of fidelity in marriage is culturally relative.' He meant that, in cultures in which marriage is a sort of 'small business' it matters less than in cultures in which marriage is about 'romantic love.' If some quasi apocalyptic scenario occurred and eg the oil ran out, and even highly industrialized societies recreated something of pre-industrial culture, we might return to 'marriage as small business.' I think the quasi-apoc scenario is unlikely, and thus that not only will highly industrial cultures continue to see marriage as a matter of two individuals in a long term romantic love, but that this model will spread to the less industrialized regions, where it hasn't entirely taken effect yet.
2) As one of your single Catholic readers, I will enrage you and others with the distanced-doormat attitude: I just think, paternity knowable or not, male infidelity matters less. To me, it's a matter of psychology. I think 1) that most men are more capable of being unfaithful without it really saying as much about their basic orientation to their spouse; 2) I think men are more psychologically reliant on female fidelity than vice versa. IE, sorry, I'm a neanderthal woman, and I think men are the weaker sex.
I wouldn't go on that guy's com boxes and say, 'wow, I agree with your chauvinist ideas' - why? Because I assume this guy is a secular social conservative, who thinks 'nature is nature,' and that's not my take.
There is a certain amount of worldly wisdom in Johnson's view, and I suppose a secular conservative male might not be totally off base in wanting to appropriate it, though the self-serving aspect of it it hardly needs to be pointed out.
But it should be noted, to Johnson's great disadvantage (since he was a Christian), that there is absolutely no Christian warrant for his line of thinking. The New Testament, as far as I can remember, is pretty uncompromising about infidelity for either sex.
"I think men are more psychologically reliant on female fidelity than vice versa." I'm inclined to agree, but on the other hand I've heard some female testimony, e.g. from my wife, to the contrary.
You won't enrage me by that attitude. (Is that Francesca?) But I do have a couple of comments to make. One is that "romantic love" was in its infancy in Hester Thrale's day, and probably had little influence on her feelings of neglect. What did have an effect on her was that her husband had so little conscience about the matter that he gave her little of his interest or time, preferring to spend his spare time with his mistresses.
That leads me to one of the reasons I don't believe in giving explicit or tacit permission to male infidelity on the grounds that it doesn't matter, or that women are stronger: I would prefer men to realise that their little flings cost something, both to their legitimate families and to the women with whom they have casual liaisons. That cost - time, money, attention, even love, sometimes - can drain away the resources they have to give to their wives.
The various Devlin pieces that I read irritated me no end because they lacked much in the way of evidence for some of their wilder assumptions (no, I don't remember which ones in particular); and because they showed a fair degree of inconsistency over some matters. He argued that men had a right to control money, in pre-modern times, because they earned it - but then turned around and acknowledged that women made important contributions to the household economy. Then he added that these were not paid labour so they didn't count; and FINALLY he threw in something about how the Christian world was different because it allowed women to own property and sign contracts.
Most of this is not only self-contradictory but as you probably know based on misinformation about history. Women could and did earn money to contribute to the family economy in pre-modern times, with their spinning and sewing and washing and helping to manage the family business. They nearly always brought property or possessions, however small, into their marriages (if they had none the chances were they couldn't marry) of which they might then lose control; and in many jurisdictions and regions in Christendom, e.g. England, they could not own property, and any of their earnings, even after divorce, were automatically forfeit to their husbands, until the married women's property act was passed in 1882.
I don't think Devlin said anything about women's fidelity except that contemporary women are inconsistent about this: they expect men to be faithful in every sense (not having extramarital affairs; remaining married even if no longer in love) but do not demand the same things of themselves. I expect there's some truth in this, but much of it derives from the sillier side of feminist boosterism, and its impact on education and "women's studies". Devlin's approach, so full of inaccuracies itself, isn't much of a corrective.
Yes, it's me (Francesca). I agree with Maclin that there's no warrant for it in the NT. Christians naturally see male infidelity is as much a moral sin as female. Clio - I'll come back to your's in a little. Only time for one at a time tonight. Getting a book I'm editingto the publisher on Monday. Back later tonight or tomorrow.
Me back - I agree entirely that women made an invaluable contribution to the 'family business'. I hoped that that was included in my use of the term. On that point, Devlin just strikes me as a misogynist boor.
Maybe I'm wrong, and the contemporary 'romantic love' idea of marriage develops aspects of Christianity which it was not possible to develop much in pre-industrial cultures. Or to put it another, it enables Christians to develop aspects of their conception of marriage which it was materially impossible to develop in pre-industrial cultures.
Romantic love is nothing new and certainly wasn't new in Johnson's day. The only innovation of the XIX century was connecting love to marriage - earlier it was held as self-evident that there can be no love between a husband as his wife. Love requires freedom, and a wife must obey her husband.
It is well described in "Allegory of Love" of Lewis.
It is interesting that troubadours, who invented courtly love, were under the influence of Cathars, ie Gnostics. Modern feminism is ultimately an outgrowth of a purely gnostic ideology, although of course they are not aware of it. (Neither abstract reasoning, nor historical knowledge, nor philosophy belong to their strong sides).
Your discussion whether husband or wife have bring more to the marriage from the economic point of view is self-evidently absurd. It is eminently important, of course, in the individual marriage, where it decides what options a woman has.
The economic point of view is however inapplicable to marriage in general, as a social institution, because it aims are ultimately not economic. Using the economic point of view, when debating the marriage in general, will inevitably lead to the destruction of marriage and the lack of economically senseless children.
(There is no need, therefore, at this point to even debate the influence of the various "anti-discrimination" regulations on the income of women.)
Even more senseless is the attempt to use the economic point of view to decide what the relations between husband and wife should be. (On the other hand, it is quite possible to regulate the economy in such a manner as to get desired relations).
And what the relations between the husband and wife should be? - I have no idea. There is one requirement: they must provide for the stability of marriage and rearing of children. Any other system will disappear (this is obvious, I hope), regardless whether it gives justice to woman's economic contribution to marriage, or not.
Moreover, we shouldn't mistake the legal form with the reality of marriage, In the Roman law, for example, all legal forms of marriage disappeared even before the Empire began. People got married by simply living together and expressing will to be married, and divorced by expressing their will to be divorced. There were no legal formalities. That didn't change the reality of marriage.
So, what will be the future of marriage? It will be remarkably similar to the past. Marriage can really take care of itself; we don't need to trouble ourselves about it.
The real question is: what is the future of the Western civilisation? The marriage will last, but what of us?
My answer is: the Western civilisation will survive, but will be rather changed. Now we see the last attempts to create the rational paradise on earth. Such attempts have defined the Western civilisation for very long, and seem to be something natural - to us.
For any other civilisation, the question whether marriage does justice to women would be senseless. The aim of marriage is not rendering justice to anyone.
At present, therefore, we see the ultimate attempt to gain the ultimate justice on Earth - for blacks, gays, children, women, savages and apes (in Spain). Previous attempts claimed to be rational and realistic; their proponents tried to persuade people that they will give them scientifically proved happiness. The present attempt is born of desperation: it doesn't try to show that it agrees with the reality; to the contrary, it is based on the Gnostic claim that the reality itself is evil, that the "socially constructed" reality is the tool of dominance. Such a claim is the best proof of the end, because Gnosis equals suicide. We see the classic Gnostic inversion of moral values everywhere.
How will that attempt to build a paradise fail, and what will happen afterwards? Will the change be peaceful, or will it be more murderous that Communism? How will society function afterwards? I have no idea. I am not a prophet.
I can offer, however, a few general observations:
1) The construction of society is determined ONLY by men (and in fact, nearly only by WHITE men, in case of America). Women have influence only in individual cases, not on the society as the whole. (That is why Devlin's accusation against women is unjust). The slave-mother of the sultan could de facto rule the Ottoman empire, but it hadn't the slightest influence on the status of women and slaves in general. If American men converted to Wahhabism overnight, women would immediately begin to run around in those black sacks, and very quickly learn to be happy about it (the amount of necessary beheadings would be minuscule, comparatively speaking). This would of course be very damaging for the society as the whole - the Arab countries are not very developed as the rule - but the decision does not lie with women.
2) Americans seem liable to very violent swings in opposite directions (Prohibition, 1968 etc). But not, not as violent as THAT - there will be no Wahhabism in America.
3) As the American prison system shows, after an outbreak of utopianism, the resulting backswing of realism can be somewhat harsh.
4) The first Roman emperor, Augustus, tried to strenghten marriage and increase fertility of higher classes by tax benefits and other legal incentives, but the results were mixed.
5) Marx had it backwards - the religion (or quasi-religious ideology) is the basis of society, the economy is the superstructure.
Hmm. Baduin, I was slipshod in expressing myself on the issue of romantic love. But I stand by the point that romantic expectations of marriage did not begin to have a broad social impact until the nineteenth century when the Romantic movement began to have a major impact on culture. These new expectations had little to do with any change in the status of women, who were still then expected to obey their husbands.
I was not attempting to suggest that either wives or husbands bring more to marriage. Nor does the issue greatly interest me. I was annoyed by Roger Devlin's muddled assertions about the matter.
Clio
"These new expectations had little to do with any change in the status of women, who were still then expected to obey their husbands."
At first, yes - but it began to change quite quickly. There was a lot of women in XIX century who were not satisfied with obeying husbands - and the society ie men supported them. See John Stuart Mill.
In fact, the emancipation of women was an unavoidable consequence of the general liberal and progressive tendency of Western civilisation. If you say A, you must say B. If you say: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." you will have finally to say that it applies to Blacks and women too.
And if you get rid of the bit about the Creator, it will apparently have to apply to apes, in Spain at least.
Apes get legal rights
in Spain
Baduin
Yes, me too, Baduin, - when I spoke of romantic love, I just meant the idea of marriage being based in romantic love. Evidently, the Troubadours had the idea. Don't know much about them, frankly. Years ago, I used to have a triple album of Troubador chivalry stuff, but I didn't listen to it often for enjoyment. Like you, I've heard that they were gnostics or Cathars, but, I'm very ignorant. There's some famous book, isn't there, which one is supposed to read on this, and I've never got there. This Troubadour romantic love thing checks into my consciousness of things I have some first hand knowledge of with Dante. He seems to take the Romantic love idea, and, applying it to Beatrice, he makes her the icon who leads him to the love of Christ. So, somewhere down the line, even old gnostic-romantic-love was baptised, by Dante.
I've been re-thinking my initial reaction to Clio's post. It seems to me that Johnson's attitude comes from a time when Christianity was still putting a huge amount of energy into keeping the social order together.
Development is not the same as progress, or linear improvement, so, with whatever losses and gains, 20th century Christianity has increasingly emphasised the romantic element of marriage. The Song of Songs may have always been part of the marriage ceremony (?), but its presence there was capitalised on theologically in the 20th century. There is a Biblical basis for the romantic love thing - it's not just catharism, and theologians saw that more in the 20th century. So we have Henri de Lubac with his 'nuptial mysticism' and JPII with the theology of the body and Hans Urs von Balthasar drawing these themes into his systematic theology.
In other words, of course the 'Hollywood' idea of coupleship doesn't work too well for pagans, but, for Christians that needn't be the whole of what romantic love is. And this insight or development changes our conception of the role of women within marriage.
At least for many long-married individuals, marriage is small business.
As someone who was very unhappily married, I tried to make marriage as small a business as possible.
I remember expressing the opinion that husband and wife need not even be friends, for a marriage to work perfectly well.
Now I am divorced, and in love with somebody else, and the dream of the kind of marriage I want (if we ever can even be married), is not only magnified by the possibility that it may be unattainable (C.S. Lewis; eat your heart out), but also by the grim fact that the relationship has not been ravaged by the effects of time, the cooling off of passions, and the slow decay of intimacy that seems inevitable in this world.
I am now at a point in lived-experience, far be it from me to claim this as wisdom, that I can sympathize with Mrs. Thrale, and with Johnson himself as well.
I have seen many modern day carbon analogues. The inside of a marriage, someone once observed to me, is invisible to all but those involved. As single men and women it is common to presume a certain level of happiness that married people must have, that we single people do not have. But how do we know really? It is the seeming unattainability of real, lasting love that troubles us, whether we are inside, or outside the walled enclosure of marriage.
W
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